InsaneJournal

Mabfan's post on evolution. I usually like his opinions on how science can work alongside faith because so many Sci Fi authors are so...not like that.

But he said "
it annoys me when creationists refuse to accept the idea that someone could both accept the fact of evolution and be a religious person."

And I got sidetracked from other stuff I have to do because I have to respond. Even if I'm probably going to run away from any sort of debate.



Yeah, it is annoying. But many scientists and atheists (usually ex-Christians with an ax to grind) also claim that you can't be both. And usually, they're the louder and more obnoxious of the evolution bunch (why, hello there, Richard Dawkins). The media likes that, having clearly divided lines in this "war" and nobody wants to make things ambiguous by admitting it's possible to be both religious and believe in evolution. All the people on BOTH sides who need it black and white in order to make their case wouldn't like that. So Creationists feel bullied and threatened and like someone is trying to destroy their faith so they bully and threaten right back. That's what you do when you think you're backed into a corner.

They're thinking "this person will tell me that now that I have to believe in evolution, I'm not *allowed* to believe in God, because everyone says God isn't scientific and so I will get in trouble for saying I believe".

It's not very Christian to react angrily but it is human nature. It's-not just about evolution, it's that they're afraid someone's trying to destroy their entire belief system.

Notice how I keep saying "believe in" evolution? It's because that's how everyone acts toward it. Like it's something you must *believe* in, rather than a simple fact of our universe. Like the majority of people out there, they don't understand that science is just about the pure basic facts and it isn't an idealogy. That not addressing God in a science class is not a claim that the kids are not allowed to believe in Him. Just that science doesn't consider it relevent to the discussion. They find this insulting because to them, there is no discussion God isn't relevent to.

They don't understand how they're supposed to just leave God out of it.

But can't they just tell their kids to memorize the right answers to pass their exams? Just pretend they agree for twelve years?

Not really. They feel as if they are being asked to lie. And even though many adult Christians lie all the time to get what they want, they really do want to raise their kids not to lie. Really. Even if it means they have to lie in court so their kids never have to (we all think this will work, doing bad things so the next generation won't have to). Imagine that...instructing a six, ten or fourteen year old to lie on a test when every Sunday you teach them never to lie about anything. To them, it's not just lying, it's lying about *God*. It doesn't matter if their version of Genesis is very confused, *they* believe it and in their eyes, asking them to say it did not happen that way is a lie. Lying is a big deal in the fungelical community, that's why they're so harsh on people who get caught lying and I think a lot of the lay people would be devastated if they knew how much their leaders lie to them.

The parents are scared that if their kids learn evolution (which the parents weren't taught, this tends to happen the most in places where people are poor and not well educated) they'll come home with all sorts of questions about how to reconcile that with faith, and the parents won't be able to answer. This will make them look stupid in front of their kids, and will cause the kids to think that faith has no answers and they will desert religion for those who are able to give them concrete answers. Because people are convinced that both science and religion are here to provide us with concrete, never changing answers. Just look at the way both are covered in the media.

And teachers are not supposed to address the religious aspects (they can't even have a mandatory comparitive religion class) in public school, so they can't even reassure the kids that it's okay to believe in both. Creationist kids get taught at home and in Sunday School that if they try to bring up any other side, people will laugh at them so they enter the class already uncomfortable and resentful.

I am not a Creationist but I keep getting that impression that Certain People out there would be thrilled if debunking Creationism caused the fall of Christianity or even of belief in God in general. They talk about it so smugly, as if they really ARE presenting a point in a debate about whether God does or does not exist, assuming that the issue of Creationism versus Evolution is directly and irrevocably a matter of faith or lack of faith in God.

So it starts to feel like an attack on people who want to believe in God even if they disagree with the Creationists (although even many other religious groups would rather disavow their own creation myths rather than look as if they endorse anything resembling Creationism). I mean, people just pretty much assume you're a Creationist if you admit to being a devout Christian.

And it's an argument you can never win. Fight back, and you're evil, walk away and they decide that you walked away because you couldn't beat their argument.

The Creationists have tried to compromise with the rest of the world, but the rest of the world isn't having it, because they assume that if you give Creationists an inch, they will take a mile. Maybe that's true but it's equally true that if you won't let them save face or have even a thread to hold onto, it's just gonna make things worse.

"So I can't tell the students that Genesis is literally true. How about if I say that evolution is correct but heavily imply that it's all guided by God?"

"No."

"If a student asks me in front of witnesses,if I believe that evolution is guided by an outside force like God, can I affirm that?"

"No."

"Can I put stickers on the books reminding them that evolution is only one of many theories?"

"No."

"Can I refuse to teach that unit?"

"No, you'll be fired."

"Can I take my own kids out of the class?"

"Not if you want them to graduate."

"Can the kids just make sure the teacher understands that they don't agree and they're doing this under protest?"

"They can argue all they want but if they don't answer the question right they'll be marked down. Even if they happen to be correct on some point, it will still be wrong because the only correct answer is the one in the teacher's book."

"Can I have a Biblical literacy class to balance things out?"

"No."

"Can I have vouchers to send kids to private religious schools?"

"No."

"Can I just homeschool my kids and skip those parts?"

"You can homeschool them but you can't skip those parts if you want them to get into any state school or private secular university or any accredited religious college."

As for actual Creationists, the fungelical way of dealing with theological and scientific questions is very different from the Orthodox Jewish way. Judaism is very, very secure in its roots and foundations and ways of defending itself to outsiders. So are Catholics and Anglicans. Fungelical Christianity is NOT. People are terrified of being proved wrong because actually, they don't have any information and don't know how to get any information and everything they do know is built on generations of people worriedly avoiding education because they were ashamed of what they didn't know already.

Evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity in North America started out by appealing the most to those who lacked the education to argue the complicated points of Biblical history and theology. This is why they used to attract all the people the other churches didn’t want (and you might say, they still do, which is probably why it's so popular in the US, since the US is a country made up mostly of people no one else wanted). It was based on a groundswell of emotion and popularism, so the people who rose to the top were not the most well educated but the ones who *believed* the most and were best at getting other people to believe.

One of the core beliefs of theirs is that all you need is belief, anyone can do anything for the church if they just really, really, really, Believe. The process of getting "saved" in that culture consists of saying a prayer and *then* being told what you've gotten yourself into (unlike Anglicanism, Catholicism, Judaism and etc). To believe is more important than to actually know anything. They pride themselves on this, because belief is all they've had for such a long time. Many of their adherents are people who have come out of a situation where they know absolutely nothing about God or Christianity and are drawn to it because they need help with some other issue (poverty, homelessness,alcoholism, abuse, drugs)and this causes them to latch on to this particulary passionate and obsessive form of the faith. Even after, as my sister says "they stopped buying booze and started buying diapers", they can't let go of this worldview and keep passing it on to their children.

Because they've been taught that all they need to do is Believe, no one tells them that understanding the Bible requires more than just reading it over and over in a very literal fashion and that other Christian denominations say it's okay to argue with what the book says. No one tells them how we really got the Bible, or how truly backward their information is. They don't even trust other Christian denominations.

The people they chose to become their ministers, and sent away to college got sent to “Bible College” not to a seminary or a Divinity school. It means their students of the ministry are now being taught by people who were taught by people who were taught by people who would have flunked out of a real seminary or Divinity school and wouldn't last one day in a yeshiva. They just keep learning the same incorrect facts over and over again, and each time they come out thinking they’ve received a complete Christian education and go home to shepherd other people who know even less.

Bible College is designed only to teach future ministers how to create and manage a congregation, not to further true knowledge of church and Biblical history. You learn a little Greek and some basic history but mostly you're spending four years learning stuff you should have already known. It gets worse when you realize that in the last fifteen years, the Southern Baptists (one of the largest denominations in the US)were taken over by an ultra conservative faction, coming out of the Pentecostal movement, which cleansed the colleges of all liberal or progressive influences.

So, what can we do to make this evolution thing become palatable to Creationists?

1) Everyone has to admit that we *do* need to work on making them *want* it, and stop yelling at them, making fun of them, and trying to force them into it. The stupider you make them feel, the more stubbornly they will dig in. Accept that they also have a right to their feelings. Focus less on getting them to admit that evolution is real, and more on getting them to understand *why* they have to at least learn to parrot the facts as other people see them.

2) Take back the Bible Colleges.

3) Churches interested in promoting a world where evolution and creation can exist together need to formulate some kind of inter denominational educational program tailored specifically toward churches that will have a hard time accepting this. It would be written in language they could understand, and feature essays and quotes from People of Faith who accept evolution. If you have to trick them into looking at the materials, then you have to trick them.

4) When you want a community to start teaching evolution, address the religious groups directly, politely and respectfully, with knowledge of their beliefs and traditions. Understand what the problem is, and let them know you understand. If you can get one, bring in a Person of Faith who is also a scientist or teacher of evolution. Make sure they understand that you're not trying to stop them from believing what they believe.

It just might be that teachers are gonna have to confront this directly. I don't know how, but not addressing it to the kids just makes it worse.

5) Maybe it *would* help if American public schools allowed a spiritual advisor to be on campus. Someone non denominational (for schools with a significant amount of non Christian students, you could bring in a second or third person as well), but just someone kids could go to if they needed reassurance about it.